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General Category >> Trapper TS240/T250 >> Was selling, now keeping Skyfall (007)

Message started by Pompeydave on 04.05.2017 at 22:37:11

Title: Was selling, now keeping Skyfall (007)
Post by Pompeydave on 04.05.2017 at 22:37:11

Hi all, just a quick update on Skyfall (ex-Nidri). I was really quite disheartened at the end of last season having only gone out a couple of times. The reason was that I'd realised that there were a few urgent jobs that needed doing that required a fair bit of investment, and I'd run out of cash I could justify spending on her without taking money away from other more pressing needs. She desperately needs a new mainsail as the original 1980 flavour one is very very tired now. It's sagged to the point that the boom needs to be lowered below horizontal to get the sail to fill with air properly. Also in need of work is the outboard- the main reason we didn't go out much last year. I finally got to the bottom of the poor cold starting issue- it's down to the blue rubber diaphragm that squirts extra fuel in on startup being perforated. It's needs a service also, but I haven't got around to getting it done. It's mighty heavy too, so I need a lightweight replacement really. I'm thinking of doing away with the well and fitting a fold down sprung transom outboard bracket to make lifting the engine in and out easier. I also still need a new cooker and gas bottle, plus toilet, cabin windows and cabin divider curtains. Other jobs are new Houdini hatch hinges (incredibly the old steel screws came out of the ali hatch frame without shearing off) and the air speed indicator still isn't on top of the mast. The boat is now properly cleaned up and re-antifouled however, and has many of the jobs that needed doing ticked off. The good news is that a mate of mine has agreed to come on board and fund the jobs for a share of the boat. So first up is a new mainsail. Anyone know the dimensions I need or a good sailmaker they can recommend? Bond Sails in Eastney Marina are my nearest. Anyone know if they're any good? Also, does anyone have a Plastimo cooker that would fit in the galley moulding? Would we reckon that a 4hp four stroke would be enough power to get me home when needed, or am I being a tad optimistic there? Any advice welcome please :)  

Title: Re: Was selling, now keeping Skyfall (007)
Post by Justin on 05.05.2017 at 16:39:59


6hp Tohatsu is same weight as the 4 hp.

I had a beautiful mainsail made by Ullmans last year for my Trapper 300. Beautiful sail and much better than the Crusader sail I had made for my previous boat.

They are based in Plymouth but John measured my boat in Cardiff so I'm sure they'll come to you.

Good luck with it all.  Have you thought of getting rid of the gas.  I ripped mine out and use an Origo 3000 meths stove.  Brilliant and much safer too.

Title: Re: Was selling, now keeping Skyfall (007)
Post by John Woodhouse on 05.05.2017 at 19:16:30

The new  mainsail for my Hamble based T300 was made by Quay Canvas at Deacons Boatyard. Contact is Rene Brent 02380 407441

Title: Re: Was selling, now keeping Skyfall (007)
Post by Pompeydave on 06.05.2017 at 14:17:30

Like the sound of the Tohatsu 6 Justin. I'll look into that. Weight is a big issue as the Mariner 6 I currently have weighs a ton. A meths cooker is a possible too- are they expensive? Thanks for the sail tip John, a scooter mate of mine has just been down to the ECA and measured up for a new main. Looks like he can do a stack pack too and clean the spinnaker and headsails at the same time  :).

Title: Re: Was selling, now keeping Skyfall (007)
Post by Paul on 06.05.2017 at 18:02:03

Hi Dave,
Replying to your response to my new season post.
I went to Jeckells for main and roll up Genoa with zip up boom cover and lazyjacks.
About 1100 pda all in. Not cheap but you get what you pay for. Mark Woodford  Jeckells man in Southbased near Milford measured up at Dell Quay on a cold Dec day 4 years ago. The deck was a skating rink.
The sails havnt made me twice as fast but I have learned to get the best out of them.Main reason for going lazyjacks etc was an easier life and they certainly help.
On engines, the consensus is that 6 HP is fine. Trouble is 4 stroke ones are large and heavy if this is a problem .Might be worth to talking to the Outboard people in Southsea (can't remember name) to see if a used 5/6 HP two stroke in good nick is available.
If you mount engine on bracket you have significant lifting in/out unless you leave it permanently in place. Beauty of well is that rudder responds directly to prop wash.

Title: Re: Was selling, now keeping Skyfall (007)
Post by Justin on 07.05.2017 at 22:47:39

Ron Hale were the outboard people in Southsea 25 years ago! Probably still are.

Title: Re: Was selling, now keeping Skyfall (007)
Post by Pompeydave on 15.05.2017 at 23:06:37

Yes, Ron Hale are still going strong in Highland Road, Southsea. My main concern with the well is the drag factor when the engine isn't in use. I don't mind lifting 28kgs onto an outboard bracket, and it just seems to be so much more convenient to lift up the bracket to get the prop out of the water once out into open water. I've done a fair bit of research in the last week and it seems that the Tohatsu 6hp Sail Drive would be the one to go for for me. It has gear controls mounted on the front, and an optional longer tiller arm.

A new sail and stack pack has been ordered by the way. £1200 all in with all the existing sails laundered too. Not a bad price methinks. Took the mast down yesterday using the previous owners wooden pivot. It was a bit hairy but we got it down in one piece. I don't like the wooden pivot though so Paul, can you tell me what the dimensions are of your stainless A-frame please? I'd rather use that type in future I think.  A mate of mine is a steel fabricator so I can get one made up quite easily.    

Title: Re: Was selling, now keeping Skyfall (007)
Post by Justin on 16.05.2017 at 14:31:38

The Tohatsu is an excellent engine.  I had one but sold it recently. Yes you don't have the benefit of propwash on the rudder but if you lift the rudder you then have the ability to swing the outboard itself which is even better than propwash.

Swinging the outboard up is easy and with the controls on the front it's fully controllable.

The only issue is cavitation in rough water, but the boat is a sailing boat so hopefully you are going to sail her rather than motor in those situations.

If you want to motor to windward in rough water then an inboard engine such as the Yanmar 1GM10 is the answer.  I've got one on my Trapper 300 and it is an eye-opener.  I've never trusted inboards before.

Title: Re: Was selling, now keeping Skyfall (007)
Post by Paul on 16.05.2017 at 15:45:49

Dave ,
As Justin says beware cavitation! My 8 HP 2 stroke Twin Tohatsu standard shaft cavitates at 3/4 max throttle opening with saildrive prop and that's in the well!
Knowing Langstone a bit I guess most of your sailing will be outside of the harbour so you may wish to consider the following:
6Hp 4 stroke is likely to be as heavy or heavier than your existing two stroke. Hopefully Jonathan with Azurian may respond with update on his recent Toohatsu 6hp.
If you are sailing mostly in open water then taking engine out of well once you are out of harbour is not too bad.
Go into irons (leave jib in place when you tack and pull helm back and secure. Boat will be stable and just drifting with current as you lift engine out and into locker. (note: always do the tack so that tiller is clear of chosen storage locker) Pop plug in and enjoy the quiet and extra 1/2 knot as you resume sailing.
When coming back repeat the above to put engine back in.

For Mast raising / lowering my stainless tube rig uses 25 mm diam tube.
Top half forming the A or more accurately the V is about 1/3 the length of the sides which are completed with spigotted  straight poles.
Total length down side of A (V) including straight pole 280cm  with width across the base 190cm. base ends completed with welded in horizontal tobe to carry 10mm bolts.
IMPORTANT: these dimensions are for fitting to upstand plates on deck some 75mm (est) inside the toe rail. They were absolutely lethal when going forward so were removed. I am able to 'spring the complete A to fit to toe rail but I would advise opening out the base dimension to fit the toe rail better if starting anew. This will alter the side length of the A a bit!
At top of the A there is a welded in loop either side to attach mainsheet one side and jib halliard the other.
Giles and I experimented with lateral mast supports when llifting/lowering. We both used a sail slide fixed to equal length halliard sized rope to each side making sure that the lower pivot on each side was in line with the mast bolt. I used 25mm link chain and Giles used rope to make a 'bridle' attached to the toe rail with shackles.
Hope this helps

Title: Re: Was selling, now keeping Skyfall (007)
Post by Jonathan on 16.05.2017 at 17:43:35

I am impressed by the prices other people have paid for their sails. I paid Kemp £882 in January 2014 for one of their Performance Cruise Mains. Admittedly it was not the cheapest they offered so it could have been quite a lot less but I reckon it was worth it because it and the furling Genoa I had from them a couple of years before have totally rejuvenated the boat's performance - it wasn't bad before with a mixture of Team and East Coast sails.

My experience with various outboards is this. I had a Mariner/Yamaha 6 hp for some time. It was a lovely motor in many respects - started at the flick of a wrist but it weighed 35 kg and when back trouble set in I just had to let it go before I got stuck with it half in and out of the well or locker. I swopped to a 5 hp Yamaha the virtues of which were much extolled on the board - I could whip it out of the locker and into the well with one hand as it only weighed 20 kg. Eventually it developed a corrosion blister on the leg and I did not like the idea the debris from this might find its way on the inside to the water pump and the Yamaha agent reckoned it would cost more than it was worth to fix it as it meant a new leg at Yamaha prices + he said the gearbox would need dismantling and rebuilding - worse than a watch. Anyway although the little Yamaha would give 5 knots with ease in light airs if I needed to motor into strong wind and wave it really struggled - just did not have the torque and no alternative prop was available. Small diameter prop not through prop exhaust. I know the TS240 is an excellent sailing boat but you do need to motor in very adverse conditions sometimes and not always with much space for error.

As it happened I needed a motor quick for lift in and found I could get a Tohatsu in time. I had looked around before and it weighs less than most of the competition at 25 kg plus my version does not incorporate an integral tank so there is enough clearance for the hydraulic pump lever if you need to lift the keel with motor in situ.

I did not incur the cost of the sail drive version as a solar panel looks after my battery just fine. I figured I could get a sail drive prop later if needed but in practise the standard 6 hp has more power than I need so you might well get away with 5 hp. Not as easy to whip in and out as the Yamaha 5 but not too bad at all. I can just about pull it out from under the tiller with autopilot engaged but I would echo Paul's comments re learning to heave to.

A lot of people don't seem to know how to do this as I have them coming over when they see the jib aback to ask if I am in trouble.

Head up into wind without releasing the jib sheet when the boat just about slows to a stop put the helm down a tad so the jib fills on the wrong side aback then gently ease the tiller right up and  secure with shock cord. If jib is aback on the port side the tiller should end up hard over to starboard. I usually let the main fly at the beginning. The boat will make some leeway but slowly and will tend to weathercock up to windward a bit and back but all will be quiet and steady so you can attend to other things like the loo, the kettle or putting the motor in the well. As Paul says try to remember to have the jib aback on same side as motor locker so the tiller is out of the way.

I often do this to get my main down as well before motoring back into crowded moorings.

I reckon an outboard on the transom is likely to be out of the water and screaming if you have to go into a river entrance with wind against tide.

Lastly my mast raising and lowering  gear is nowhere near as excellent an engineering job as Paul's but it works and has done for years. I have two 3 m timbers 2 x 2 with a bolt through both a few inches from one end. The other ends are rounded off and drilled through to take lashings which attach to the toe rail. A line runs through a block attached to the stemhead fitting one end secured to the forestay the other to one end of a 4:1 block and tackle arrangement the other end of which is shackled to the toe rail well aft and the fall goes to a sheet winch. This needs no muscle power and being so low geared gives lots of control to raise and lower the mast. In recent years to avoid the mast swinging to one side half way up I have preventer lines with a bowline round the mast just above the spreaders (I get up there with a telescopic ladder) and the falls led down to two boards lashed to toe rail and guard rail each side with holes drilled to coincide with the pivot bolt at mast foot to which the preventers are lashed. I intend to replace these with triangular plywood  boards for next autumn.

The big thing to watch when raising is that none of the rigging screws capsize as if they do are easily bent and useless. In spite of years of doing this I managed it this year as I allowed myself to be distracted by gobsmacked watchers  but in the event discovered some started strands in my lower shrouds which without my specs on I had not previously noticed.

Most of the other jobs Dave mentions I have done on Azurian. A few years back I wondered about changing boats but thought I might end up buying someone else's problems so decided to spend a bit of money and bring a few things up to date. What else could I get which is so rewarding to sail and really be easy and inexpensive to maintain. The TS240 does give 30 foot plus performance for not much more than dinghy input costs.

Phew!! never posted at this length before

Title: Re: Was selling, now keeping Skyfall (007)
Post by Paul on 16.05.2017 at 20:14:02

Hi Jonathan,
I use prevented lines but attatch to a sail slide which fits in mast track.
Sail slide is hauled up by mainsheet and cleated off on mast. This gets presenters to top of mast.
Instead of the boards I attach the presenters to a 'bridle' which replaces the boards and is attatched each end to toe rail The attachment of bridle to presenters is arranged to be in line with mast bolt.
Give the sail slide a try at least as I hate to think of your mast climbing!!!

Title: Re: Was selling, now keeping Skyfall (007)
Post by Jonathan on 16.05.2017 at 20:42:37

Hi Paul,

I will bear the sail slide idea in mind. I guess it is just a question of remembering to do everything in the right sequence. I usually attach a line to the top rung of my ladder round the mast and back down to where I can secure it to stop the ladder slipping. My wife made a rare visit to the club this spring and said she could not watch.

These boats are such elegant sailing machines it seems sacrilege to put an outboard bracket on the stern. As you say it loses the wash over the rudder blade. Surely it has to be a whole lot easier to lift the motor out of the well than heave it off a bracket whilst possibly off balance and hanging over the stern - there is always the possibility of dropping it overboard. I have heard people complaining they find that just too difficult so they leave the motor that way permanently.

Aesthetics apart I'm not sure I would want to do that here on the East Coast with a motor I attach any value to -marine watch notwithstanding.

Wind against tide here at places like the Crouch entrance or East Swale can throw up a vicious short steep sea which I know from early experience can leave the prop of a bracket mounted motor well out of the water when you want it submerged and driving. The well location is much more comfortable and if you need to make adjustments you are a bit less likely to drop your screwdriver in the oggin.

Title: Re: Was selling, now keeping Skyfall (007)
Post by Pompeydave on 21.05.2017 at 13:41:03

Hi chaps, intersting advice, many thanks. Re an outboard, if I'm only going to lose about 1/2 a knot by leaving in the well I might not bother with the expense of a transom bracket. Cavitation seems to be an issue and I'm thinking that a long shaft motor in the well would probably stop it? Either way, having looked at all the new and used outboards out there I'm leaning towards a 5hp 2 stroke Mercury, Suzuki, Tohatsu or Yamaha. It's really hard to find weights for these engines online but those mentioned above are 20-21kg's each, which would be a massive improvement on the gargantuan 31kg's of my current Mariner 6 twin cylinder. I've ruled out the Johnson 5hp twin at 28.5kg's. Basically, it seems to me that anything which is single cylinder and has an integral tank fitted is likely to be weighing in around the 20kg mark, and some still look low enough not to foul the keel pump lever. I've also realised that 5hp is enough to get me into and out of Langstone even against a spring tide as long as I hug the shore on the Eastney side, which I've always done with previous boats. For years I've often wondered why so many people stick rigidly to the middle of the channel when the current is far less at (the still deep) sides? Anyway, my Dad donated an old Johnson 4 twin which you spin around for reverse and I might refurbish it and keep it onboard as a second engine. I think the Mariner 6 will be sold.

As far as an A frame goes, the mast came down OK using Giles' old grooved pole, but I didn't like the lateral movement as the mast was lowered. Paul, your A-frame seems a much better idea so I'll try to get one made up the the dimensions you laid out above.

Title: Re: Was selling, now keeping Skyfall (007)
Post by Jonathan on 22.05.2017 at 19:45:23

My Mariner 6 was the same twin cylinder model as yours. I bought a long shaft because I was told that was best. It was a mistake as the extra length made it much more difficult to ship and unship.

I have used three other short shaft outboards and never had a cavitation problem with any of them. If there has been cavitation I have not been aware of it and no pitting of the prop or steam which are supposed to be the symptoms.

Title: Re: Was selling, now keeping Skyfall (007)
Post by Paul on 23.05.2017 at 15:43:42

The cavitation I referred to was with Saildrive (coarse) prop. which is excellent for low speed maneuvering. After around 3/4 throttle there is no speed increase but a lot of 'frothing' around the prop and no, I am nowhere near hull speed!!!!
This doesn't bother me particularly as I am happy to run engine just over half speed for normal cruise if engine essential. I don't go for the flat out running of 2 strokes is best theory.

Title: Re: Was selling, now keeping Skyfall (007)
Post by Brianq on 25.08.2017 at 06:43:14

You might try Sanderrs sails in Lymington, very good prices and a wealth of knowledge on trappers. He even has the original Ed Dubois sail plan drawings. He made a great no2 Genoa for Toucan and I shall go back to him for a new mainsail this winter.

Title: Re: Was selling, now keeping Skyfall (007)
Post by Pompeydave on 29.10.2017 at 19:30:38

Hi all, quick update on Skyfall. I now have a Mercury S/S 5hp two stroke outboard that has almost never been used. A bargain at £337, and it runs beautifully. I have an old but super reliable Evinrude 4hp twin as a backup, and both are incredibly light. I've ditched the transom mounted bracket idea also. I've now got new mainsail and stack pack which was £1200 fitted, and it looks superb. I've also had new windows made which are being fitted this week. I had a replacement NASA wind speed and wind indicator also fitted. A few jobs left to do are: reconnect the radio antenna wire, mast lights wires and wind speed wire. I also am having replacement Houdini hatch hinges made, and new window and toilet curtains are also in the pipeline. I've had the port stanchion repaired also. Not much else to do apart from maybe some teak effect cabin flooring, and LED cabin lights. Haven't been out on the boat as the sail took months to arrive and be fitted, but at that price I was happy to wait!  

Title: Re: Was selling, now keeping Skyfall (007)
Post by Jonathan on 07.11.2017 at 21:02:21

Great stuff. It is really heart warming to hear of one of these boats having care and attention lavished on her. I am quite sure you will be well rewarded next season. A five horse two stroke is ideal for the TS240 - enough push to get you along and light enough to be quickly deployed so you can enjoy a quiet sail and dry feet with the plug in. Congratulations on finding a good one - they must be rare by now.

See some of Alan Lambton's old posts - he had plenty of advice on this subject.

A shame there are not more of us actively sailing TS240s and contributing to the discussion. I will be watching for more news with interest.

Title: Re: Was selling, now keeping Skyfall (007)
Post by Paul on 08.11.2017 at 14:09:04

I suspect there are many 'silent witnesses' who sail and maintain their TS240/250 who regularly read the posts and contribute from time to time. Just look at the numbers visiting the site.
Well done Dave, its clear that Skyfall has got under your skin in the same way our TS 240's get to us!
I like the idea of 5 hp 2 stroke engine from weight point of view but am sure that it is only enough in normal conditions and is a bit pushed in more extreme wind and tide against one.

Have just brought Nautibuoy ashore for winter.
Scraped off barncles and weed with hoe and pressure washed. Some small areas exposed the underying epoxy as antifoul came away ( 2 coats over new epoxy) Believe majority is fine for recoating next March. Looks like boat pox treatment is sound.
Have Insurance survey to do so need to get on with jobs. Don't use gas but is connected
So need to replace flex hoses now coming up to 6 years old (and never used since installed and tested). Also have damaged organiser bracket at base of mast so need to remove and attend to this. Foresail reefing drum has tightened up so need to strip and clean and lubricate. Had become a real problem ~ makes me realise how much I value its proper working.
Whale pump diaphram looks a bit perished so will try rejuvenating with diesel oil or if too bad replacing. As boat is vey dry have never needed to use this but appreciate it could come in handy!
The more I think about it the more jobs get identified so I will stop now.

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