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Advice on Keel (Read 2097 times)
Brianq
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Advice on Keel
20.06.2016 at 10:45:22
 
Hi, A buddy and I purchased 'Toucan' (TS240) last year, re-fitted her and launched her a couple of weeks ago. All good so far.

We were concerned that when she was hung in the slings with the keel fully deployed the keel hung further forward than designed with the bulb some 10 deg off horizontal. A close inspection reveled a jammed front roller with a 3/4" groove worn in it but the keel box seemed in reasonable order.

Our reading of the drawings found on this site indicate that the keel sits on the fabricated box when fully lowered and the roller becomes redundant.

So, a couple of questions:

Is the worn roller allowing the keel to jam in the forward position?
Could the fabricated keel box be failing?
Is this typical for a 35year old TS

Any comments/information would be appreciated.

Regards

Brian
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Paul
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Re: Advice on Keel
Reply #1 - 21.06.2016 at 13:44:57
 
Hi Brian,
Nautibuoy has had the jammed roller/worn roller ever since purchase 12 years ago.
I cant see the roller causing any out of alignment.
do you have stainless keel box bolted to the keel and carrying the pulley etc or one in good nick? Quick check is to look through keel pin retaining access and scratch the surface to see if bright metal.
If you have carbon steel galvanised or not It is possible that if this above keel box is failing at rear end or bolts are loose that you could get some fore and aft keel movement bot you should be able to detect this movement if its there.
I suppose if the keel retaining fabrication part buried in base of hull could be in bad shape but I guess you would have detected that.
Hope this gives you a few ideas to look at. Keep us informed of progress.
cheers
Paul
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Brianq
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Re: Advice on Keel
Reply #2 - 23.06.2016 at 10:35:44
 
Paul,
Thanks for coming back, during the re-fit it became clear that the keel workings had been heavily modified. a large access hole has been cut in each side of the grp keel box giving full access to the top box, presumably the bolts on the top box have been sheared at some time as the top box has been fully stitch welded to the keel. I am guessing the top box is the original carbon steel unit, it is in great condition and the access panel allowed us to epoxy coat the top box and top 18" of the keel. The hydraulics had been stripped out being replaced with a worm drive winch situated at the base of the keel. The original top
sheave is still in place but is loose (where it is trapped between the mouldings) so a new sheave has been installed on the front of the grp keel box. A Dyneema stop (8mm - 3 tonne) is attached to the original lifting pin and runs down the front of the box to the winch. On the face of it it seems a neat arrangement. I am on the boat tomorrow so I was going to raise the keel a couple of times and see if it beds down. as I say it all looks in good order so I am not too worried about it.
Love the boat though, easy and rewarding to sail and remarkably stable for the size of the rig, she is set up for racing with individual headsails and laminate sails, club racing shortly so we shall see how she/we rate.
A weeks cruise along the South Coast next week so hopefully the weather will be kind and we can give the keel a propper test.
I have been try to upload a picture but (30kb jpeg) but it the web site is not playing ball...any tips?
Kind Regards
Brian


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Paul
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Re: Advice on Keel
Reply #3 - 25.06.2016 at 16:11:19
 
Hi Brian,
Looks as though all your keel parts are in very good nick so shouldn't worry. Just test the keel lift a couple of times and if AOK then get out there and enjoy!
The winch versus hydraulic debate was I think on this forum and the old Voy forum.
Geoffrey was a firm advocate of the winch with Dyneema which had little to go wrong and the ability to use the dyneema safety line as a jury rig if main line should fail. However the raise /lower times were much greater so you may have to adapt a bit if hard racing involving shallows. The hydraulic fans like the quicker raising/lowering especially those who have motorised it using a 12v motor though the big potential problem is loss of hydraulic fluid!
On the forward keel roller as I said before I have not got round to it as its not got any worse. I had planned to use a plastic road trailer roller of same shape size, splitting it to allow fitment over axle and holding with temporary screws while allowing bonding adhesive to cure.
The removal of the axle requires the whole of the lower buried keel retention fabrication so I wasnt keen. There was a proposal and I believe someone did it to make op a drop down bracket with new axle and roller but this would project below the hull line.
Anyhow enjoy your weeks cruise and let us know how it went.
Cheers
Paul
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Brianq
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Re: Advice on Keel
Reply #4 - 04.07.2016 at 10:38:43
 
Paul, Thanks again for your note, we are back from our weeks cruise around the Solent, most of which was spent dodging force 5/6 westerly's but have to say we are so impressed with Toucan. She is fast!
Remarkably stiff for such a light boat she carried a full rig comfortably well into to a force 4 and we only reefed down when Hazel reminded me we that we were not racing but cruising! She is easy to handle if a little twitchy on the helm but I shall experiment with the mast position/rake to reduce the weather helm when she is pressed. We flew back down the Solent with the wind behind us with 6/7 knots on the clock. The accommodation was fine for the two of us although we need to build in more storage etc to make life easier.
Despite my worries, there was not a squeak from the keel and we saw some pretty rough water at times, we sail in deep water so there should never be a need top raise the keel quickly, but as you say the winch is slow and hard work so I don't think it will work for us long term, new solution needed I think.
So, we are really delighted with Toucan and are looking forward to a season of club racing and cruises, now if we could have some sunshine please!!!
Brian
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Paul
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Re: Advice on Keel
Reply #5 - 07.07.2016 at 09:08:40
 
Hi Brian,
Yes attention to mast rake helps but have you a rudder stock that allows some fore aft tilt?
On most TS240's you can set the rudder more upright by moving the top of rudder as far aft as the stock will take. This can greatly reduce weather helm.
Glad you had some fun "Cruising " her!
Paul
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John Woodhouse
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Re: Advice on Keel
Reply #6 - 08.07.2016 at 13:16:27
 
On the T300 weather helm is a direct result of too much mainsail, where early  reefing pays dividends.
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Jonathan
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Re: Advice on Keel
Reply #7 - 11.07.2016 at 11:34:52
 
Hi Brian,

I would echo the comments re getting the fore and aft balance of the rig right and re the rudder blade. It should be possible to shunt the rudder stock backwards about 3 inches which brings the leading edge of the blade forward of the pivot line giving it good balance. My boat is fitted with clamps to hold it in place but I have seen wedges in use. A reef in the main as the wind picks up can make a big difference to the handling without reducing speed.

I think most of these boats suffer from jammed and grooved bottom nylon keel rollers. I have been told nylon expands over time in water. I have managed to keep mine moving by rasping off the surface and the sides but it still tends to clog with barnacle growth by season end. The top wheels on the top of the top box section are adjustable or should be and getting these just right makes a big difference to how sweetly the keel goes up and down. If they are wrong it can go down out of correct alignment and not sit fair and square and from experience it is possible for it to jam at the bottom. I found it paid to spend quite some time with the boat sat on a scaffolding cradle raising and lowering to get the optimum adjustment on these wheels. The original spindles were quite thin in my  case and bent - this and a worn bottom roller exacerbated the problem. When mine jammed and I thought one more pump on the hydraulics would do it the bottom of the ram pulled out before the keel came up.

Two of us leaping from rail to rail hanging out from the shrouds and dashing stem to stern freed the keel as the boat dried. It was then a question hurriedly removing the inner mouldings round the keel trunk + inspection window and a lash up until repairs could be made. Not an experience I want to repeat.
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Brianq
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Re: Advice on Keel
Reply #8 - 14.07.2016 at 21:00:15
 
Thanks for all your comments guys, Toucans rudder stock is an aluminium fabrication and as you say has enough room fore and aft to tilt the rudder, unfortunately there is no faci!ity for locking it, I think I shall try cutting  a timber wedge to keep it in the aft position. I was also going to rig a block and tackle to the backstay to assist in raising the rudder. I hadn't considered the adjustment of the top rollers to ensure keel alignment, this makes perfect sense. Fortunately the top rollers and adjustments are all greased up and in good order so it should be a straight forward exercise.
We have a deep water mooring so we don't have to lift the keel but I did try to raise it on the winch last time on the boat, as suspected it has jammed solid. The winch is rated at 3000kg but it wouldn't shift it. The club has a boat hoist so I plan a lift out for a keel inspection and scrub off. Keep you all posted on progress. Brian
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